Interview “Religious freedom is under pressure.”
zeitzeichen: Mr Schwabe, what is the situation with regard to freedom of religion or belief worldwide?
Frank Schwabe: There is no question that religious freedom is under pressure. Only an estimated three per cent of people worldwide are able to truly express their religion freely or decide to live their lives without religion. But freedom of religion or belief is not a human right in a vacuum, it is always linked to other human rights. In places where religious freedom is under threat, you often find that press freedom or freedom of assembly are threatened as well. We are seeing an overall reversal worldwide in this regard, with more and more regimes trying to curtail human rights.
What is the situation with regard to religious freedom at home in Germany?
Schwabe: That topic is not actually part of my mandate, because I am responsible for the international aspects. However, we do need to be just as critical in dealing with our own situation if we want to judge the situation in other countries. Certainly, Germany would be in the top section of any international ranking. But there are also restrictions on religious freedom in our country, for Muslims for instance. They should be able to build mosques, including mosques with a minaret. But that is often prevented when it comes down to it.
Should it be allowed although Christians are not simply able to build churches in Turkey?
Schwabe: I have no use for that kind of relativism. We don’t argue that way when we talk about topics like media freedom. After all, the fact that there is censorship elsewhere would not justify it in our country. Muslims frequently experience discrimination in our society and that needs to be stated and prevented. But we also have instruments that we can use in accordance with our General Equal Treatment Act, such as the Federal Anti-Discrimination Agency.
What tools can you use to defend freedom of religion or belief worldwide?
Schwabe: Of course, we cannot dictate to sovereign states what laws they should have in place, but we can keep pointing out that they have signed international agreements in which they have undertaken to uphold human rights, including freedom of religion or belief. We can and must keep addressing relevant issues – if needs be with urgent insistency – during visits, and in statements and reports, so as to strengthen those who are standing up for freedom of belief. Others certainly take note when we do that. Likewise, the report by the German government [on the status of freedom of religion or belief], which we publish every two years. But that is obviously a challenge, because we are pursuing foreign policy interests that do not always automatically equate with human rights.
What does that mean in concrete terms?
Schwabe: As the German government we stand for a feminist and values-based foreign and development policy. But we also want even more from countries worldwide. Let us take India, for example – a country that we need, also in order to isolate Russia with regard to its war of aggression against Ukraine. India is important when it comes to topics like climate action and energy policy as well. At the same time, we are witnessing massive and growing restrictions on freedom of religion or belief in that country. I am not calling for us to stop our cooperation with India. On the contrary. But violations of human rights must be clearly addressed, especially now.
Do you wish for more support from the German government in this regard?
Schwabe: My area is foreign policy and I understand the special interests of the German government. At the same time, I see the danger, particularly with regard to India, that in trying to strike a balance between cooperation and addressing violations of human rights there is a risk right now that too much value will be attached to being diplomatically considerate. We need straight talking.
How did you end up as the Commissioner [for Freedom of Religion or Belief]?
Schwabe: During my many years serving in the Bundestag [German parliament], I have always had an eye on international issues, especially the human rights situation. I was the SPD parliamentary group’s speaker on human rights and humanitarian assistance for two legislative terms, and I am actively engaged in the Council of Europe. There, too, freedom of religion or belief plays an important role. Because of that, the German government no doubt saw me as having quite a bit of experience and therefore as a suitable choice.
Is your own experience of faith and religion part of that?
Schwabe: Until now my own experience did not play a significant role in my political life. Personally, I am a Protestant, not deeply religious, but I do have a connection with the church. The role that my personal faith plays has been strengthened by my wife. As someone who grew up in Nigeria, she was much more strongly shaped by her faith and especially by a certain spirituality. We have three children and we had to find a shared answer to the question of what role religion should play in our daily life. Luckily our local church community is very active and engaged, especially in terms of what it offers for children and young people.
To what extent is religion a political issue?
Schwabe: In the end, religion is always about how people organise the way they live together, on a small scale and on a large scale, and that is also a question of power. That alone makes religion highly political. But I also do feel personally that the church should comment on current political issues. However, right now we are seeing how, in many countries, religion and the church are being used as instruments for political campaigning. That is not the kind of political religiosity that makes you free and that ultimately results in people being able to express their religious beliefs freely or being able to decide to live their lives without religion. That is something which does worry me.
Which countries are we talking about now?
Schwabe: Religious campaigns like those which Donald Trump has organised in the US and is still organising, or the way that religion was used by former president Jair Bolsonaro as a political instrument in Brazil. And we are also seeing it in the case of Hindu nationalism in India, where religion is used to shore up positions of power by discrediting those with other religious views.
After just under two years in this post, what experiences so far have shaped you the most or left the most lasting impression?
Schwabe: The first experiences that come to mind have to do with the countries I have visited, for example Nigeria, where I dealt with the religious connotations of conflicts on my visit. Another aspect was the huge problems facing people who do not describe themselves as either Christian or Muslim, and who do not belong to any religion. For me, it is important that everyone should be able to enjoy life’s blessings in their own way. Anyone who wishes to live a life without religion should be allowed to do so. In Nigeria I was dealing with the case of Mubarak Bala, who has been sentenced in the court of first instance to 22 years in prison on a charge of blasphemy. When I was in Iraq and the Kurdistan Region of Iraq, on the other hand, the focus of my visit was on the fate of the Yezidis, who in some cases practise their religion in a very conservative way.
You can see that as placing restrictions on the lives of individuals. On the other hand, these strict rules have probably also helped to ensure the survival of this religious community. It was also fascinating to see the communities in the monasteries and convents in the region, where they follow a way of life similar to that of the earliest Christians. A visit to that part of the world is like going back in history and takes you deep into what is at the core of the Bible and into the core of Islam and Judaism. I learn a lot from these visits – and that is enriching.
Have you discovered a connection between religions, a thought or a teaching that they all share?
Schwabe: All religions have mercy and compassion at their core. You can experience in all religions how people are helped and how the weak are supported. Fasting and focusing on something other than gathering worldly goods are also elements that I have encountered in many religions. At the same time, all religions also want to shape the society that they are part of and tell people how they should live their lives. That can be a good thing, but it can also be highly problematic.
What will be in your report, which will be coming out this autumn?
Schwabe: There will be a country section this time as well, specifically describing the situation in more than 40 countries. In addition to that we will also look at the topic of development policy and religion. But a key topic this time will be the freedom of religion or belief of indigenous peoples. What I want to do is look at this topic from an unusual perspective. I also want to show people who are engaged in human rights work, people who don’t always see much point in religion, how important religion or belief is for their work, too. We will be working for example with Prof. Heiner Bielefeldt from the University of Nuremberg-Erlangen, an eminent authority in this field, but also with other experts. They will open our eyes still further. Which is good, because if nature inspires indigenous religions, then that cannot fail to have an impact on development cooperation.
In the coming month, heads of state and government will be meeting at the UN in New York to discuss the outcomes of the 2030 Agenda at its halfway point. They are not looking good. Can religions help us still achieve these goals?
Schwabe: Yes, very much so. In many countries, religious actors are a strong moral compass in society and play an important role in deciding whether or not we can still achieve the goals of the 2030 Agenda. Health, gender equality, environmental protection – these are all topics that are often communicated via religions and religious actors. Getting them on our side for the 2030 Agenda would be an important achievement; without them we probably won’t achieve the goals.
This thinking has also been responsible for shaping the foreign policy of the German government for quite a few years now. Under Frank-Walter Steinmeier, the representatives of the different religions were also sought out as important political allies. This era seems to be over. Now feminism is the key word for shaping not just our foreign policy but also our development cooperation.
Schwabe: For me, it is important to show that taking a stance on freedom of religion or belief is not at odds with the feminist approach, and that in fact the two aspects complement one another. For us, it is not about spreading religious dogmas. We are thinking about individuals, persons who are not able to live according to their religion or their non-religion. Generally speaking – and this is also true in the case of feminist foreign and development policy – this is about people who are marginalised in society, for example indigenous peoples. For me, both these topics belong together and I will do everything that I can to ensure that the German government continues to engage in or launch such projects.
This interview was conducted in Berlin on 22 May 2023 by Stephan Kosch.